Disney+ Marvel's Black Panther

[LUCIEN]

What? I really don't understand all this boosting up of Killmonger over T'challa. I get why African Americans would relate to his viewpoint more, and that's cool, but some of ya'll are going over board especially this post. How is Killmonger better educated? They both went to good western schools and got high level educations not to mention T'Challa grew up in the most advanced country in the world, so I'd say he had the edge in education. Who says Killmonger was better trained? Did you see Civil War? T'Challa is already the Black Panther. He already knows how to fight and use his suit and super powers. Killmonger showed he was the better straight up combatant, but T'Challa is far more experienced with the abilities given by the herb and the Wakandan tech, both of which he leveraged for his win. And the smarter thing, I don't know. I don't see any basis for claiming Killmonger is smarter than T'Challa. Also to say, that T'Challa did nothing but sit around while people wiped his ass doesn't make sense given what we know about him. Are you sure you're not getting him mixed up with Jaffe Joffer or something?

There's a few reasons for the view

1. MIT is the top school in the world.
2. T'Challa went to an inferior school even though he had every advantage under the sun
3. Killmonger pulled himself up from the Ashes of his father's death to become great. Greatness was not gifted to him as a consequence of winning the birth lottery.
4. Killmonger whooped old boy in 1 to 1 combat.
5. The only reason T'Challa won is he better understood the immediate environment they fought on, which was a consequence of him being given that knowledge from his sister who makes all the tech

Adversity produces greatness, and T'Challa faced very little. Decadence produces weakness.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

There's a few reasons for the view

1. MIT is the top school in the world.
2. T'Challa went to an inferior school even though he had every advantage under the sun
3. Killmonger pulled himself up from the Ashes of his father's death to become great. Greatness was not gifted to him as a consequence of winning the birth lottery.
4. Killmonger whooped old boy in 1 to 1 combat.
5. The only reason T'Challa won is he better understood the immediate environment they fought on, which was a consequence of him being given that knowledge from his sister who makes all the tech

Adversity produces greatness, and T'Challa faced very little. Decadence produces weakness.

1. It's not necessarily the top school in the MCU, and it definitely doesn't have the best scientific minds or resources. Wakanda has that.
2. T'Challa went to Oxford. Saying he went to an inferior school is spurious because even if MIT is the top school in the world, that doesn't mean it's the best for everything. On top of that, best school is subjective and varies from student to student. One school being ranked higher than another doesn't mean that everyone from the first school is better educated than everyone from the second school. lol
3. That's true, but to act like those born in royal families face no adversity isn't really accurate. There are people in this world that crack under the pressure of trying to inherit the family restaurant. That being the case, you'd be crazy to think that preparation to inherit a country like Wakanda isn't taxing.
4. He did.
5. True, what's your point? Killmonger fought T'challa on T'challa's home turf and lost. You watch sports? Homefield advantage matters.

It's safe to say that T'challa didn't have it as hard as Killmonger, but the assumption that T'challa was just living a prim life and wasn't actively and strictly being groomed to take over a position that came with a lot of responsibility and trouble is inaccurate.

 

[Lou Cypher]

I know they were trying to stay away from the "Man-Ape" title for M'Baku, but it would be cool if in a future movie we see a flashback of him killing the white ape, or maybe one that gives him powers

 

[LUCIEN]

1. It's not necessarily the top school in the MCU, and it definitely doesn't have the best scientific minds or resources. Wakanda has that.
2. T'Challa went to Oxford. Saying he went to an inferior school is spurious because even if MIT is the top school in the world, that doesn't mean it's the best for everything. On top of that, best school is subjective and varies from student to student. One school being ranked higher than another doesn't mean that everyone from the first school is better educated than everyone from the second school. lol
3. That's true, but to act like those born in royal families face no adversity isn't really accurate. There are people in this world that crack under the pressure of trying to inherit the family restaurant. That being the case, you'd be crazy to think that preparation to inherit a country like Wakanda isn't taxing.
4. He did.
5. True, what's your point? Killmonger fought T'challa on T'challa's home turf and lost. You watch sports? Homefield advantage matters.

It's safe to say that T'challa didn't have it as hard as Killmonger, but the assumption that T'challa was just living a prim life and wasn't actively and strictly being groomed to take over a position that came with a lot of responsibility and trouble is inaccurate.

T'challa won the rematch after he was blessed with a second a chance. Again, not really a consequence of anything he worked for.

The crux here is the idea of "merit" that is introduced many times in the film. Who is deserving of Wakandan identity, and of Wakandan technology, and of Wakandan Aid. Well, when T'Challa loses ceremonial combat and can't exhibit the same merit he expects from others, while his rival does, it is clear that he has failed as the story's hero. This is evidenced by the way Killmonger's views ultimately end up altering T'Challa's.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

T'challa won the rematch after he was blessed with a second a chance. Again, not really a consequence of anything he worked for.

The crux here is the idea of "merit" that is introduced many times in the film. Who is deserving of Wakandan identity, and of Wakandan technology, and of Wakandan Aid. Well, when T'Challa loses ceremonial combat and can't exhibit the same merit he expects from others, while his rival does, it is clear that he has failed as the story's hero. This is evidenced by the way Killmonger's views ultimately end up altering T'Challa's.

That doesn't make any sense. The Wakandans built their society. T'Challa is a Wakandan. The movie is not about who is deserving of anything of Wakandan influence. It's about what responsibility Wakanda has to the rest of the world, particularly people most like them.

And yes, you can make the argument that T'Challa coming back to face Killmonger the way he did flew in the face of tradition, but the whole point was that Wakanda's traditions were fucked up. That was the crux of Killmongers argument. So you can't say "Oh Killmonger is so great because he wanted to tear down the traditions that kept Wakanda from helping people" and then turn around and say "Oh T'challa is terrible because he didn't adhere to this tradition that would have resulted in leaving a tyrant in the throne ruining Wakanda and possibly the entire world."

 

[Griot Vision]

T'challa won the rematch after he was blessed with a second a chance. Again, not really a consequence of anything he worked for.

The crux here is the idea of "merit" that is introduced many times in the film. Who is deserving of Wakandan identity, and of Wakandan technology, and of Wakandan Aid. Well, when T'Challa loses ceremonial combat and can't exhibit the same merit he expects from others, while his rival does, it is clear that he has failed as the story's hero. This is evidenced by the way Killmonger's views ultimately end up altering T'Challa's.

He got thrown off the cliff and survived... I'd say living through that is working for it. Also he didnt lose because you either have to submit or die. T'Challa did neither. Killmonger was playing The Dark Knight's Joker and wanted to watch the world burn. He wasn't so much interested in helping others as he was A. Seeking vengeance B. Sowing chaos around the world and C. Becoming a tyrant in Wakanda

 

[LUCIEN]

That doesn't make any sense. The Wakandans built their society. T'Challa is a Wakandan. The movie is not about who is deserving of anything of Wakandan influence. It's about what responsibility Wakanda has to the rest of the world, particularly people most like them.

And yes, you can make the argument that T'Challa coming back to face Killmonger the way he did flew in the face of tradition, but the whole point was that Wakanda's traditions were fucked up. That was the crux of Killmongers argument. So you can't say "Oh Killmonger is so great because he wanted to tear down the traditions that kept Wakanda from helping people" and then turn around and say "Oh T'challa is terrible because he didn't adhere to this tradition that would have resulted in leaving a tyrant in the throne ruining Wakanda and possibly the entire world."

I never said that. My claim is that Killmonger has more merit to be the leader.

 

[LUCIEN]

He got thrown off the cliff and survived... I'd say living through that is working for it. Also he didnt lose because you either have to submit or die. T'Challa did neither. Killmonger was playing The Dark Knight's Joker and wanted to watch the world burn. He wasn't so much interested in helping others as he was A. Seeking vengeance B. Sowing chaos around the world and C. Becoming a tyrant in Wakanda

He got saved by a rival clan leader. And then his family resuscitated him. Then the mountain clan comes and saves his butt again.

There's a lot of ass-saving and not a lot of doing for self.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

I never said that. My claim is that Killmonger has more merit to be the leader.

Yeah, but your reasoning for that conclusion is flawed. Killmonger caught a rough lot and he found away to rise above it, but his way involved charting a course through live that involved him killing a bunch of people. And then when he did get power, the first thing he did was establish that he'd rule with an iron hand, make moves to prevent any chance of anyone being able to follow him as king, and try to kick-off an international revolution built on violence. His capabilities for leadership pretty much begin and end with his ability to inflict violence on those around him. How does that make him a better leader than a person that is willing to take action when needed and also reflect on what needs to be done and alter his stance based on the information available? T'challa was the better leader. All Killmonger brought to the table was some insight that was missing in Wakanda, and T'challa, like a good leader would do, took that insight to hear and made decisions based on it.

 

[LUCIEN]

Yeah, but your reasoning for that conclusion is flawed. Killmonger caught a rough lot and he found away to rise above it, but his way involved charting a course through live that involved him killing a bunch of people. And then when he did get power, the first thing he did was establish that he'd rule with an iron hand, make moves to prevent any chance of anyone being able to follow him as king, and try to kick-off an international revolution built on violence. His capabilities for leadership pretty much begin and end with his ability to inflict violence on those around him. How does that make him a better leader than a person that is willing to take action when needed and also reflect on what needs to be done and alter his stance based on the information available? T'challa was the better leader. All Killmonger brought to the table was some insight that was missing in Wakanda, and T'challa, like a good leader would do, took that insight to hear and made decisions based on it.

"Goodness" is subjective, so what makes one a better leader is going to yield endless disagreement. However, there is a way to objectively see who had more assistance. We can't attribute T'Challa's success to himself as it is a product of an entire country, from his family saving him, to the mountain clan backing him up, and beyond. Killmonger had much less help. As a result what he achieves is more attributable to himself rather than the village around him babying him.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

"Goodness" is subjective, so what makes one a better leader is going to yield endless disagreement. However, there is a way to objectively see who had more assistance. We can't attribute T'Challa's success to himself as it is a product of an entire country, from his family saving him, to the mountain clan backing him up, and beyond. Killmonger had much less help. As a result what he achieves is more attributable to himself rather than the village around him babying him.

You're basically arguing why Killmonger wouldn't be as good a leader. Wakanda isn't a dictatorship. It had a king, but that king works alongside a council and with help from other people. The basis for your stance seems to be that Killmonger is more deserving because he didn't need anyone else to become who he was. Well that's not a strength if you want to be a leader that has to work with others to thrive. T'Challa knowing the history, culture, and inner workings of Wakanda and already being equipped to work with others as the leader is precisely why he's more suited to be the leader.

 

[GNS]

GET THAT NIGGA REX @The Lonious Monk

 

[LUCIEN]

You're basically arguing why Killmonger wouldn't be as good a leader. Wakanda isn't a dictatorship. It had a king, but that king works alongside a council and with help from other people. The basis for your stance seems to be that Killmonger is more deserving because he didn't need anyone else to become who he was. Well that's not a strength if you want to be a leader that has to work with others to thrive. T'Challa knowing the history, culture, and inner workings of Wakanda and already being equipped to work with others as the leader is precisely why he's more suited to be the leader.

Wakanda is going to be whatever they want it to be. Just as the tradition of noninterventionism was abandoned, any other one could justifiably be abandoned. Killmonger's refusal to abide by tradition isn't really pro or con since the leaders ultimately do have the power to change tradition as they see fit.

Those advantages you list are things Killmonger would have reasonably learned over time. Which just shows, T'Challa didn't win monopoly because of his own special ability, he just started on Boardwalk and beat someone less accustomed to the game.

 

[LUCIEN]

Even though the ending bothered me and I disagree that T'Challa was the most deserving king, there was a nice bit of subtext there with the role reversal where Africans are coming to the rescue of African Americans.

 

[LUCIEN]

That doesn't make any sense. The Wakandans built their society. T'Challa is a Wakandan. The movie is not about who is deserving of anything of Wakandan influence. It's about what responsibility Wakanda has to the rest of the world, particularly people most like them.

And yes, you can make the argument that T'Challa coming back to face Killmonger the way he did flew in the face of tradition, but the whole point was that Wakanda's traditions were fucked up. That was the crux of Killmongers argument. So you can't say "Oh Killmonger is so great because he wanted to tear down the traditions that kept Wakanda from helping people" and then turn around and say "Oh T'challa is terrible because he didn't adhere to this tradition that would have resulted in leaving a tyrant in the throne ruining Wakanda and possibly the entire world."

You contradict yourself here a bit. If there is no theme in the film about what people deserve, then why does Wakanda have a responsibility to people? The only way this responsibility makes sense is if the people they are responsible to deserve it.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

Wakanda is going to be whatever they want it to be. Just as the tradition of noninterventionism was abandoned, any other one could justifiably be abandoned. Killmonger's refusal to abide by tradition isn't really pro or con since the leaders ultimately do have the power to change tradition as they see fit.

Those advantages you list are things Killmonger would have reasonably learned over time. Which just shows, T'Challa didn't win monopoly because of his own special ability, he just started on Boardwalk and beat someone less accustomed to the game.

You're missing the point. Killmonger wouldn't have learned anything because he didn't care. That should have been clear to everyone. He came in and when people tried to explain shit to him, he shut them down and used his authority to dictate. He literally had no experience running anything and had no real understanding of Wakanda, yet he thought he knew best and didn't want to hear input from anyone else. Again, Killmonger was clearly a tyrant in the making. No matter what you thought about his viewpoint, you should have been able to look at what he was establishing about himself as a leader and understand that he was headed down a bad path. He's not different from Castro or Hussein or any one of a hundred other revolutionaries/rebels that got power off of good sounding principles only to abuse that power when they had it. That's not something anyone has to worry about with T'Challa.

 

[Ironman]

If Killmonger became King Earth would be in all out war and both factions of the Avengers would've jumped in that shit. Plus Doctor Strange wouldn't have sat on the sidelines either on top of the other countries on Earth too. Straight up Global war and by time they'd finally finish whooping eachothers assess there'd be a certain intergalactic warlord+armada coming to visit. Also, not to mention he's in control of items powerful enough to wipe out planets.

 

[Allergens]

I thought the Ode MBJ gave to Vegeta was dope , from sporting his armor to the mask he wore looking like Vegeta in Ape form

 

[LUCIEN]

You're missing the point. Killmonger wouldn't have learned anything because he didn't care. That should have been clear to everyone. He came in and when people tried to explain shit to him, he shut them down and used his authority to dictate. He literally had no experience running anything and had no real understanding of Wakanda, yet he thought he knew best and didn't want to hear input from anyone else. Again, Killmonger was clearly a tyrant in the making. No matter what you thought about his viewpoint, you should have been able to look at what he was establishing about himself as a leader and understand that he was headed down a bad path. He's not different from Castro or Hussein or any one of a hundred other revolutionaries/rebels that got power off of good sounding principles only to abuse that power when they had it. That's not something anyone has to worry about with T'Challa.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. At least not for Black folks, the people he is actually beholden to as a ruler. Hasta Siempre. Viva Chavez Killmonger.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

That's not necessarily a bad thing. At least not for Black folks, the people he is actually beholden to as a ruler. Hasta Siempre. Viva Chavez Killmonger.

It is a bad thing though because Cubans have suffered as a result of things that Castro did. And I'm not talking about American propaganda where they made Castro out to be the devil. I'm just saying, that once he got into office he lost sight of his noble intentions and what he created was not what he envisioned.